IC360’s Daniel Trolaro on his journey from prison to safer gambling educator

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Ladies and gentlemen, do welcome to the next episode of my Save Bed Show and it gives me a great pleasure and it's also a privilege to welcome to the show, I dare say, very good friend of mine and a good man, Mr. Dan Trelaro, who's very recently, because we're filming right after the Memorial Day weekend here in the States.

become the co-managing director of education and training services for IC 360. Bit of a mouthful, nonetheless welcome on the show Dan, great to have you. Thank you Martin, it's good to be with you. It's honor, especially after Memorial Day weekend, to just have this time to talk as we hit the summer months and just so much going on in the world of gambling.

and sports betting and always need to be safe. So it's great to be with you, my friend. Thanks for that again. Yeah, we're certainly hitting the summer months. Lots of sun filtering through my windows here. There's method to this madness because then you've been here a bit longer than I have. But these days we are both and very proud, I may say, inhabitants of the garden state.

Shame on you if you don't know that the Garden State is New Jersey, but perhaps there are a few out there who may not, so just for avoidance of any doubt. So let me kick it off there. I've had a few of us, if you will, the New Jerseyans on this podcast already, and I have done my very best to discard some of the myths about the Garden States, especially the New Yorkers are very good at inventing them. Even

Daring call us the legs of a dry fruit state. Shame on them. But this is not a travel podcast, but yet, Dan, what attractions, what sites, what places would you invite all the folks out there to come and see in New Jersey? Well, the obvious one with the title of the show would be Atlantic City, obviously. But besides the gambling Mecca of the East Coast, I would say going down the shore.

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As we say in New Jersey, DTS, going down the shore, going to Cape May, Wildwood, Seaside Heights, anything along the coastline. You beautiful coastline in New Jersey, lots of parks also, state parks. You have the beautiful skyline that you can go along the Hudson River and see New York City right across the river from Jersey City. So just taking in those sites, the other side of the state, you have some mountains, not huge mountains like the Rocky Mountains, but good enough for some good hiking, some lakes.

So New Jersey really does offer a lot. I almost feel like I'm selling New Jersey, the Garden State, and my particular favorite Martin, because I love pie. Anyone that knows me well knows I love to eat pie. We have some of the best blueberry farms in Southern New Jersey. clearly takes all the boxes. So now you've got your marching orders. If you're coming from overseas, do fly into the Newark airport, as they say, North Jersey, the Newark.

Airport, might have mispronounced it and then all the way down the shore, my favorite, by the way, just for the record, is the lovely Long Beach Island. We've kicked it off by a light-hearted topic, but we will, if we may, then move on to talking about an event that has been tragic and has literally changed your life, namely 9-11. It's been a true

If not the key determining factor for you as it has been in so many other lives. So may I just ask you in your own words, of course, to tell your story. What happened to you that day and what's happened since please? Sure. Yeah. Thank you. You know, I'm born and raised in New Jersey, 48 years plus and

Having graduated college in New Jersey as well, the College of New Jersey, I originally was looking at playing baseball, but unfortunately an arm injury kind of derailed that career path. And it led me down the path of finance and economics. And having grown up in this state with horse racing and blackjack in Atlantic City and all kinds of fun stuff, I always kind of gambled a little bit as a fun form of entertainment, underage with friends, poker games on a Friday night, playing sports.

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Loving numbers, ended up going to college for finance and economics and got my first job in New York City right across the river at an investment bank, Goldman Sachs, one of the premier investment banks in the world. And I remember I was married only three months at the time. And it was the night before September 11th was a rainy night in New York City. I had gone to the Yankee game, which was rained out.

came home, watched some Monday Night Football and woke up on Tuesday morning, September 11th, 2001. It was a beautiful sunny day, just like it is today as we're recording. And I remember getting into the city around 8 a.m. and I always commuted in through the World Trade Center. And I would got to my office, which was about a tenth, maybe a tenth to two tenths of a mile to the east of the towers. And as I'm sitting in my office, 40th floor corner office, I see a plane flying really low in the sky. And I remember seeing it disappear out of my view.

And then I see a big plume of smoke and I'm 25 years old at the time, Martin. I couldn't imagine how a plane would hit a building. You we'd never seen that before. least I had never seen that before. And over the next period of the next several minutes and hours, everything unfolded as we know how it unfolded around the U.S. And during that period of time, know, smoke is trying to starting to flow east towards Brooklyn. They're shutting the city down. There's chaos. There's commotion on the streets. It looks like a war scene.

And I remember my managing director coming into my office saying, we have to get out of here now. And we went down 80 flights of stairs because the elevators in our building had just been shut down, got to street level. And the devastation and the carnage, know, that's what I can't get out of my head. You know, seeing people jumping from windows and seeing bodies hit the pavement and losing 14 friends that day. And I talk about that day because it's so important. That was a day like my life changed because

The innocence of the first 25 years to some degree was gone when you go through something like that. And I didn't grow up in a house where I really talked about a lot of how you feel, generationally our family never did that. And so I started using gambling, which I had grown up around as an escape. It wasn't alcohol, it wasn't drugs. I didn't put any that crap in my body. But the gambling was the thing that I could do quietly without people knowing. So I just started playing blackjack on my laptop before it was even legalized in the state of New Jersey.

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just as a way to escape. And for me, blackjack and cards made me feel better. It wasn't about the money, how much I won or lost, but my relationship with gambling was different than maybe as a form of entertainment, because it wasn't, it was a coping mechanism. And over time, it started leading me down this path where eventually I left Goldman Sachs, I couldn't work in the city anymore. I became a financial planner with Prudential right in Newark, New Jersey, and ended up as a financial planner, embezzling funds from my clients.

And it got to the point where it cost me my freedom, four and a half years of my freedom from 2011 through 2000, say 15, 16, because of my gambling. I just continued to embezzle funds and misappropriate funds so that I had money to gamble. And that's how it progressed over time. It got to the point where I spent my time away. And while I was away, I realized I have to do something different. And when I came out of prison,

and came out of incarceration and custody, I ended up working at 800 Gambler, which is the national helpline for people who struggle with gambling or have a loved one, and started dedicating my life to sharing my story just like I did now to a certain degree with others around the country in hopes that they can understand or explore their relationship with gambling to keep it safe, right? Because that's the whole point of this podcast, know, safe betting, safer gambling, sustainable gambling. I did not have that at all.

and it started to create a lot of harm and trouble in my life. First of all, thanks for sharing the story. It's very important for the folks out there to hear it and through it I did have and I'd heard it before but it's so powerful that yet again I'm having tears in my eyes. lost a lot of loved ones that day and without really dwelling

On it, perhaps one final question you told me many, many moons ago that for quite some time you just could not bring yourself to go back to the site of the terrorist attacks. From my perspective, was 18, nearly 19 at that point, a Czech kid miles, miles away, but I'd like to think that saying all the horror.

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by a TV screen, I got affected as well, of course not as much as you did. So I suppose my experience going to the 9-11 memorial site is very, very different, although the vibe is still very sombre and especially on the birthdays of some of the victims. And of course you get to see the roses. I think it's a wonderful, but at the same time very, very sad and tear-jerking tradition.

put the roses through the holes of the names of the victims. But recently you plucked up the courage and ventured down there. So if I may ask, what was that like after all those years? Yeah, while I was working with Epic Risk Management, then became Epic Global Solutions, we would have meetings in downtown New York. And it was funny, even before that, I would have friends that would want to get together in lower Manhattan.

And if I ever met them down at a pub or something down there or any meetings, I would always go through Midtown New York, through Penn Station, take a subway and then walk. Or I would just walk. I refused to go and take the train or any type of transit service directly into the Trade Center. I just could not do it. And I think it got to the point, Martin, where I realized that I was being held captive by that. You know, I was stuck in this, how I like to say, I was stuck in this mental prison.

You know, I was now out of physical prison, right, for a number of years, but I was stuck in a mental prison where I was the only one holding myself back. And so I started processing and working through that with, you know, I have a counselor that I was seeing and talking to bit more recently in the last few years. And I think I just got to the point where I got sick and tired of being sick and tired of being stuck. And

I just one day and it was around September. It wasn't the anniversary, but it was in the month of September where I said, you know what? I have a meeting coming up. I am going to do this. And I remember feeling nauseous, lightheaded, anxious, dry mouth, know, heart racing and stuff. And I remember when I first walked into the, the new World Trade Center transit system and station and saw it for the first time, it was 2022.

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It was 21 years after everything happened. You know, I waited 21 years. I couldn't bring myself to go back and I walked by the reflective pools and walked around and I just took about two hours just to take it all in to kind of force myself to stay there. And as hard as it was, I'm so glad I did it. I mean, it was probably one of the more important things I think I've done with respect to dealing with that past.

just powerful. And now I can go and come back and forth. I broke that barrier down. You know, I unlocked that mental prison, I stepped out into the light, so to speak. And now I have no problem. I've been down there several times since and each time just, you know, gets a little bit easier. And you know, it's it was important, but I'm so glad I did that. Thank you for us. We all applaud your courage. And if I could give you a virtual hug. You've very briefly mentioned the 1900 Gambler and the new

NJ Council on compulsive gambling. we will come on to talk about Epic Global Solutions and also IC360 in a second. But you're still involved with the NJ Council these days and what are the current priorities, suppose, especially in the light of what still is a sports betting regulatory bonanza here in the States? Yeah, you know, I

I was thankful I was able to join them as a result of some funding that got freed up as a result of internet wagering becoming legalized in 2013. So as a result of that, there were additional funds set aside which allowed for me to actually have the job that I had, which was in charge of education. So I've been in the education field now for over, I don't know, eight, nine, maybe 10 years, just almost a decade. And the priorities, I'm not engaged much with the New Jersey council any longer.

I spoke at their conference with one of our mutual good friends, BP3, last year. It was a great time. Any panel with Bill, you know Martin. I know, yeah. I'm through that pain all the time. Hey Bill. We love Bill. I love being on the panel with Bill and it was great. That was the last time I did something with the New Jersey council. But some of their initiatives is again, promoting 800 Gambler as the national helpline.

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You know, one of the issues we have in the US, let me take a step back. We received what we asked for in 2018 when they repealed PASPA. Every state received the right to do what they wanted to do with respect to legislation, regulatory affairs, setting monies aside and how to handle gambling within the state borders. Fast forward now to 2024, we're starting to hear some murmurings and talkings of states saying, hey, maybe the federal government can help with this, that, or something else.

We have to be careful there. And so that's been kind of the issue that New Jersey council is focusing on making 800 Gamble the National Helpline, but also gambling treatment diversion court. That is a big initiative that they're trying to get in the state to recognize that people who commit criminal acts, just like if you have an addiction to substance use, people can have an addiction to gambling. We know that. We know New Jersey is three times the national rate of people experiencing harm, but let's also not warehouse people in a prison.

if they're better served to get help and treatment and support outside. Unfortunately, it has not taken flight or even really moved much, but it's something that we're trying to model after the Nevada gambling treatment diversion court with honorable judge Cheryl Moss and even in New York when we had gambling treatment diversion court. So those are a couple of the big initiatives and continuing education is a big one, Indeed, a lot of work to do, I suppose.

bit light-heartedly, it would also be very helpful if we finally could be rid of 16 lines of small print on the every ad to spell out every single number there is all around the country, because on a serious note that would also help with providing prevention and if need be subsequently treatment to the folks that need it and they would no longer be getting confused what those numbers are on earth for.

Epic Global Solutions, your next role, you joined the, if pardoned the pun, Epic, I'm biased, but Epic Epic team in 21 and keeping up with the theme, you've become one of their faces during the period that you spanned with them. We certainly had lots of dealings together and you supervised most importantly and directed all their prevention.

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activities related to problem gambling behaviors up and down our beloved US. So could you tell us a bit more about the epic US facing program from your perspective? Because as you may recall, we've had the likes of Paul Bughaire. I'm sure we'll have other epic staff on the show in Not Too A Distant Future. But what was your experience? What was your perspective when you were part of that team? Yeah, great question. You know, it was

While I was at 800 Gambler in New Jersey, I was afforded the opportunity to become the next executive director for that nonprofit specific for the state of New Jersey. And at the same time, I was having conversations with Epic Risk Management at the time before they changed names last year, November of 23. And what appealed to me about making that switch was going from just providing education in one state to now providing it in up to 50 states.

providing it just for all citizens to also the working with athletes, because I have a passion to work with athletes. I love working with emerging adults. I love working with youth, and I love working with athletes. And when I took a look at what Epic was achieving with one of their milestone flagship programs with the NCAA was to provide education to student athletes at NCAA institutions, Division I, II, and III around the country. And through the helps of several

individuals, yourself included, we were able to achieve that over several years. And it was powerful to see understanding and connection with 18 to 23 year old male and females who could relate to some element of a lived experience story. Martin, that's what really drew me to Epic was I now have the opportunity to share my story as much or as little, right? Just the right amount.

So that someone can maybe hear something that resonates. And what we know is that people don't always remember what you tell them, but they remember how you make them feel. And to be a good storyteller and to kind of weave a story in and take someone on a journey and tie it back to what makes you vulnerable to developing gambling harm. How do you keep it safe and sustainable? What will your relationship be with gambling? You should explore that just like people do with alcohol, just like people do with marijuana.

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Right? So we, it has to be a fabric of our society. It has to be a part of every conversation. We can't just sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't happen because we're seeing it grow as states come online more and more for sports betting and online and mobile device. So that was part of what attracted me was to have that opportunity and privilege to continue to share a story across the country. And there's no doubt it's a very powerful story. Thanks again for sharing it. And needless to say, it's a great storyteller.

on top of that, but perhaps bringing you back, I bringing you back to places at points in time. So my apologies, but now the first time you were asked by Epic to stand up and tell the story. Now I'm picturing because I've been to a few of the classes that not necessarily you would have done, but some of your colleagues.

What was that like? I'm picturing, as I was going to say, a room full of student athletes just eagerly awaiting what may come. They might or might not have had any clue. But inside, deep inside, how did you feel? I'm standing here right now and I'm going to share my story. You know, I was I'm going to say I was fairly calm because I had been sharing my story with high school.

aged individuals around the state of New Jersey for a few years prior. So I had already was comfortable working within a younger demographic. For me, it was a bit easier dealing with college age individuals because of those added few years of maturity, where they would grasp the knowledge at a slightly different and deeper level than say a 16 year old might still in high school. It's that added maturity. Even though the brain is still developing until late 20s, they still hear it differently.

and standing before them as someone who was a high level baseball player and prospect before injury, someone who's raced triathlon for 18 years, multi-sport, very competitively, we're more similar than we are different. And so I focus on the similarities and I realize that each and every one of them sitting in that room is almost right where my twins are, right? So just a couple of years away. So there was this relatability factor that made me feel really comfortable.

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as an athlete, former athlete, current athlete, as being a father of twins at the time who are still a year or two away from going to college when I first delivered, and just being around sports and athletics. I mean, just, that's how I knew I made the right decision, is I had this instant comfort and sharing my story, I know my story. I'm the expert in retelling that, not in dealing with it. I learned that over time too. I'm not the expert in dealing with the things from my story. That's where I need outside help also.

But I'm the expert in retelling that story and refining it based on the audience. And the world of college sports is no doubt better for it. I will add a bonus question because originally when we planned this, you still, well, I suppose you might have known, but I didn't know yet that you were going to change jobs. So congratulations yet again on the new role. I say free.

60. So besides having that rather convoluted job title at the same time, I suppose it is what it says on the 10. What is it you're going to do in the next three months and then beyond for IC 360? Great question. know, IC 360, formerly US integrity, primarily integrity and compliance monitoring, monitoring for nefarious gambling activity, non nefarious gambling activity, prohibited bettors.

know, college age individuals and student athletes are not allowed to place bets on certain sports based upon the bylaws. Same with pros. There are certain rules they must follow, but sometimes more, and it's amazing, people don't follow the rules. It's a wild concept. I have no idea about that myself. Very, very wild. Very, very wild. Yes. As a gay man, a Tony.

We should, of course, all this follow the rules. my words. Follow the rules. And so what I realized was with Epic, we had a tremendous ability to connect from an educational level. And then we would leave the college or school, but then it would have to wait another year. And it would say, well, what are those touch points during the year?

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With IC360, formerly US Integrity, the touch points were ongoing integrity monitoring, making sure that student athletes aren't getting threatening or abusing messages. The amount of online athlete abuse that we're seeing, especially this past year with the men's and women's basketball tournament, when a person wagers and loses, some of them feel empowered to send threatening DMs through social media or...

send letters to the school campuses, they still use snail mail. So we're starting to see, so we have the ability now besides delivering hard-hitting lived experience education to then have ongoing monitoring, digital education solutions, checking to make sure that student athletes are not vetting or trying to play daily fantasy sports, which is a different, although similar animal. So making sure that we're keeping our student athletes, coaches and staff safe.

and keeping the integrity of the game safe, which leads to then safer, sustainable gambling industry. The work that we'll be doing is redesigning their entire education platform and system and bringing it to the next level so that the student athletes, coaches, and staff can understand their relationship with gambling, but also why they're in harm's way while they're, while.

why there may also be an integrity threat or concern and how to keep themselves safe if they are approached for inside information or if someone does send them threatening messages and then what it might mean to their mental health. Do they need to seek outside support? Do they need telehealth? So kind of bringing all of those stakeholders together in a 360 way, hence, right, 360, bringing that all together as a comprehensive solution.

If pardon the pun, you might be running around the clock with all that work in 360 direction. I'm flying to Ohio State tomorrow. Cool. Well, that's a great place to be. Let me segue this before we hit the home straight and start talking a little bit about sports, a little bit more rather, and then I will give Dan 60 seconds to convey his key messages. One of my token questions before that, the state of the RG union in the US, I might have coined that phrase, but what it's worth might not be

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The greatest one, but it seems to be working more or less. So in your view, because we've already touched upon one 800 gambler, a few other bits and bobs, but what is it that's gone well for the last, well, since the repeal of PASPA, so six years and in what areas we as an industry may still be rather letting us down at least ever so slightly. Sure. Yeah.

What has gone well is finally getting 800 Gambler more recognized across the country as the main helpline. A number that's easily recognizable, super simple to text, chat or call because we know younger individuals are not going to pick up a phone and call. They'd rather text or chat. So kind of moving with technology and advancing it that way. I think what was also has been really, really well since COVID.

is the growth of podcasts, not just this, but self-help podcasts, recovery solutions. I co-host one with Craig Carton called Hello My Name is Craig, where we're reaching over 50,000 people across the country, who people who share their journey with gambling. So you get to hear different perspectives. So technology has allowed for not just the expansion of gambling availability, but also for support services, information and treatment. I think that's gone really well.

I think where we're still missing is in a few areas. I personally am not a huge fan of the phrase responsible gambling, because it implies that you're being irresponsible if you're not. Whereas safer gambling means that you're already trying to be safe, but let's try to make you just a little safer. And for me, there's something there about terminology. So that's one area of just kind of thinking through terminology and

gaming and gambling and all the wording and language. Marketing is one that comes up a lot with the legislative conferences I attend through Nickel-G's and when I speak on panels. We have restrictions on tobacco and alcohol, gambling advertisements, but do we need to start exploring certain types of restrictions on maybe gambling advertisements, whether it's font size, time of day, target audience, whatever it might be, saturation. Is that something we should be looking at closer?

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And the third area I would like to see a better job of state by state, getting some education in the K through 12 school system. I'm a big believer of prevention and prevention starts with education and knowledge so that we can equip, empower and educate future generations to understand that gambling can become harmful for a small part of the population and understand why you gamble, understand how games are played, understand risk taking.

And don't use it as a coping mechanism. We don't want to see people turning to it for something other than what it was intended for, which was a form of entertainment. Well, thanks for all this, and particularly your take on the terminology. We've had quite a few, as you can imagine, throughout the seasons of this podcast here. And semi-jokingly, clearly, Dentralara was going...

All UK, safer gambling. It's no longer responsible gambling. So we might have to deal with this at the US side of the pond. Moving on to the question of sport, we're right at the near peak of the Stanley Cup playoffs. Sadly, the New Jersey Devils are out of it, but now the Rangers are looking great. So that will be the first question. Do you think they can go all the way?

For the first time in 30 years, you think? Okay. You've had it here. Because it was 1994, 1994. We know what happened in 94. Nixon Rangers were both in it. We had the OJ incident. OJ passed away this year. And so it's time for the Rangers to win again. I was going to say, hopefully the Rangers will not pass away, but that would not be appropriate. Let's just say, let's hope the waiting will be over as it was after 54 years.

And the other part of that question relates to your beloved baseball as a former baseball player and a proud father of an aspiring baseball player. Fingers crossed the Braves will pick him. Forget everybody else. Now, who do you think very early days, but who do you think has the best of chance of winning the World Series this year? The Phillies?

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I'm excited. Once we get Garrett Cole back, I tell you Juan Soto, Judge, have Verdugo, who is a former Red Sox. He might sabotage us at the end, but you know, I can see Yankees Dodgers in the World Series. I can see it. Fingers crossed for the Yankees. Let's hope the Red Sox will not go black. I shall digress and give Dan 60 seconds to convey his key messages, please. Yeah, key message. know, first, thank you, Martin.

I mean, I enjoy this time. always enjoy speaking with you and chatting with you about so many different topics. know, gambling continues to grow around the country. The need for education occurs at so many different levels. And we need to see and continue to see stakeholders working together. The leagues, working with the amateur sports leagues, working with financial services institutions, those who extend credit, working with regulators and legislators, working with prevention coalitions, with therapists.

with clinical treatment facilities. This is a multi-layered, multi-faceted solution that's needed. It's not a one size fits all. As we know, it's state by state, different demographics. But for me, it also comes back to a phrase that I've used in the past, and I think you've probably heard it before. Rules without relationships leads to rebellion. And the key reason I say that is if we only focus on yelling rules, writing rules, and enforcing rules,

without helping people understand the deeper meaning or the relationship behind that rule, we're gonna see rebellion. And rebellion can be criminally justice involved individuals, addiction, loss of family relationships, know, loss of a diminished sustainable industry. Relationships and why it matters is at the core of everything we do for ourselves and within our society. So I wanna see more education, more prevention efforts.

and more understanding so that we can look through this from a lens of relationship building and grow together towards a sustainable industry. Hey man, the year was 1776. That's how this country was started by means of rebellion. Thank you very much, Dan. Ladies and gentlemen, this was Dan Trollaro, 9-11 survivor, safer gambling advocate, one of the driving forces behind IC 360. And on top of that, a very good man and a very good friend.

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of mine. So thank you again, my name is Martin Lechka, this was the latest episode of my Save Bet Show and I hope to see you next time.